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	<title>Comments for Evening Person</title>
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	<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>most things people believe are false</description>
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		<title>Comment on Hart and Armstrong: God on high by tali</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/hart-and-armstrong-god-on-high/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>tali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=211#comment-124</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read the book,  but I have read the review quite closely. Here&#039;s my take: most constructs about which we care, have very vague physical correlates, and if interrogated too vigorously by someone with a penchant for reductionism will just, sort of, collapse. 

Let me provide a quick example. A lot of mathematicians have quite an advanced sense of intuition about how to go about mathematics. The popular conceptions of mathematics as a dry, formal and computational activity are largely wrong. Instead, it is a very human and organic activity, with a quite a deep seated tension between exploratory creative imagination and formal, rigorous culling of ideas (if you&#039;re interested in Machine Learning, as I am, there is an interesting analogy here with simulated annealing).

What&#039;s my point? Great mathematicians and physicists develop a very sensitive and often quite ineffable idea of what they&#039;re doing. They are using heuristics and analogies on such a high level that they completely resist formalization, and sometimes even description. Does that stop them? Not the good ones. It is the wellspring of their creativity.

The same is true about life. As you live it, there is a clear &quot;ground truth&quot; - physical reality (there is a deep subtlety hiding here, which is that the apparent solidity and unambiguous reality of our human-scale world disappears at other scales, but let&#039;s ignore this for now). But physical reality is almost the least interesting level of reality. If you just stick with objects and their immediate interrelationships, you don&#039;t really gain much predictive power. 

To make smart predictions, you have to start abstracting, and indeed you do. You abstract from a messy collection of conjoined body parts to a single &quot;animal&quot; or &quot;person&quot;, a messy collection of desires and instincts and plans to a unique &quot;individual&quot; with a &quot;history&quot;, all the way up. All the important things in life: friendship, group membership, nationality, government, competition, cooperation, love, hate, belief and so on, all of these notions are so high level it is just silly to ask what their physical correlates are. 

And that&#039;s fine. That&#039;s what intelligence is - a hierarchy of abstraction. But we don&#039;t deny the existence of these things. We know they are real and affect us and are worth trying to better understand. My claim would be the same can be try of even more abstract and &quot;physically real&quot; constructs, and perhaps, if you were so inclined, you could map these constructs back down to what ordinary, religious people call &quot;god&quot;. 

That seems quite reasonable. I&#039;ve been thinking about precisely how one would do this, and I have some ideas. Now, just because I&#039;m finding the idea of &#039;god&#039; interesting again after many years of the traditional type of strident atheism does NOT mean I&#039;m sitting praying to some personal god about what I want to happen next, as Dawkins would claim any sense of spiritual mystery would lead one to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read the book,  but I have read the review quite closely. Here&#8217;s my take: most constructs about which we care, have very vague physical correlates, and if interrogated too vigorously by someone with a penchant for reductionism will just, sort of, collapse. </p>
<p>Let me provide a quick example. A lot of mathematicians have quite an advanced sense of intuition about how to go about mathematics. The popular conceptions of mathematics as a dry, formal and computational activity are largely wrong. Instead, it is a very human and organic activity, with a quite a deep seated tension between exploratory creative imagination and formal, rigorous culling of ideas (if you&#8217;re interested in Machine Learning, as I am, there is an interesting analogy here with simulated annealing).</p>
<p>What&#8217;s my point? Great mathematicians and physicists develop a very sensitive and often quite ineffable idea of what they&#8217;re doing. They are using heuristics and analogies on such a high level that they completely resist formalization, and sometimes even description. Does that stop them? Not the good ones. It is the wellspring of their creativity.</p>
<p>The same is true about life. As you live it, there is a clear &#8220;ground truth&#8221; &#8211; physical reality (there is a deep subtlety hiding here, which is that the apparent solidity and unambiguous reality of our human-scale world disappears at other scales, but let&#8217;s ignore this for now). But physical reality is almost the least interesting level of reality. If you just stick with objects and their immediate interrelationships, you don&#8217;t really gain much predictive power. </p>
<p>To make smart predictions, you have to start abstracting, and indeed you do. You abstract from a messy collection of conjoined body parts to a single &#8220;animal&#8221; or &#8220;person&#8221;, a messy collection of desires and instincts and plans to a unique &#8220;individual&#8221; with a &#8220;history&#8221;, all the way up. All the important things in life: friendship, group membership, nationality, government, competition, cooperation, love, hate, belief and so on, all of these notions are so high level it is just silly to ask what their physical correlates are. </p>
<p>And that&#8217;s fine. That&#8217;s what intelligence is &#8211; a hierarchy of abstraction. But we don&#8217;t deny the existence of these things. We know they are real and affect us and are worth trying to better understand. My claim would be the same can be try of even more abstract and &#8220;physically real&#8221; constructs, and perhaps, if you were so inclined, you could map these constructs back down to what ordinary, religious people call &#8220;god&#8221;. </p>
<p>That seems quite reasonable. I&#8217;ve been thinking about precisely how one would do this, and I have some ideas. Now, just because I&#8217;m finding the idea of &#8216;god&#8217; interesting again after many years of the traditional type of strident atheism does NOT mean I&#8217;m sitting praying to some personal god about what I want to happen next, as Dawkins would claim any sense of spiritual mystery would lead one to do.</p>
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		<title>Comment on More about Stephen Meyer&#8217;s lecture on Intelligent Design by eveningperson</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/05/16/more-about-stephen-meyers-lecture-on-intelligent-design/#comment-121</link>
		<dc:creator>eveningperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=64#comment-121</guid>
		<description>The existence of evolution as a process depends on the fact that life originated, true. That doesn&#039;t mean that the theory of evolution (the explanation of how it happens) depends on how life originated. They are separate theories. Just as you don&#039;t need to know how you developed in order to understand how your heart works, and you don&#039;t need to know how a car is made in order to understand how it works.

But the way life is now must depend in some ways on the nature of the first cells to survive and replicate successfully, for example, the universal nature of the genetic code.

Your second point I agree with entirely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The existence of evolution as a process depends on the fact that life originated, true. That doesn&#8217;t mean that the theory of evolution (the explanation of how it happens) depends on how life originated. They are separate theories. Just as you don&#8217;t need to know how you developed in order to understand how your heart works, and you don&#8217;t need to know how a car is made in order to understand how it works.</p>
<p>But the way life is now must depend in some ways on the nature of the first cells to survive and replicate successfully, for example, the universal nature of the genetic code.</p>
<p>Your second point I agree with entirely.</p>
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		<title>Comment on More about Stephen Meyer&#8217;s lecture on Intelligent Design by kostas</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/05/16/more-about-stephen-meyers-lecture-on-intelligent-design/#comment-120</link>
		<dc:creator>kostas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 09:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=64#comment-120</guid>
		<description>the procces of evolution began with life. with the first living cell. thats why evolution is something you see in living organisms only. so selection and every other aspect of evolution is tied with the first living cell. 

Now another thing i would like to say in general is that even someone could actually prove wrong the theory of evolution, the alternative explanation &quot;God did it&quot; isnt proven at all. you dont prove somehing by proving something else wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the procces of evolution began with life. with the first living cell. thats why evolution is something you see in living organisms only. so selection and every other aspect of evolution is tied with the first living cell. </p>
<p>Now another thing i would like to say in general is that even someone could actually prove wrong the theory of evolution, the alternative explanation &#8220;God did it&#8221; isnt proven at all. you dont prove somehing by proving something else wrong.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Beware the spinal trap by eveningperson</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/beware-the-spinal-trap/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>eveningperson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=248#comment-116</guid>
		<description>A list of some other blogs displaying the article:
http://skeptic.org.uk/news/2009/1610</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A list of some other blogs displaying the article:<br />
<a href="http://skeptic.org.uk/news/2009/1610" rel="nofollow">http://skeptic.org.uk/news/2009/1610</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Rational or Irrational, or neither? by Elliot Temple</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/rational-or-irrational-or-neither/#comment-114</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliot Temple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 02:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=205#comment-114</guid>
		<description>Rationality is a property of how one treats disagreements. Does one&#039;s approach allow for changing one&#039;s mind and keep open the possibility of error elimination, or not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rationality is a property of how one treats disagreements. Does one&#8217;s approach allow for changing one&#8217;s mind and keep open the possibility of error elimination, or not?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Not quite so honest to Darwin (or anyone else) by Creationists crashing the Darwin party &#171; Welsh Marches Humanist Group</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/not-quite-so-honest-to-darwin-or-anyone-else/#comment-99</link>
		<dc:creator>Creationists crashing the Darwin party &#171; Welsh Marches Humanist Group</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:32:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=48#comment-99</guid>
		<description>[...] in Darwin’s birthplace Not quite so honest to Darwin (or anyone else) More about Stephen Meyer’s lecture on Intelligent Design Other creationists who crashed the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in Darwin’s birthplace Not quite so honest to Darwin (or anyone else) More about Stephen Meyer’s lecture on Intelligent Design Other creationists who crashed the [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Not quite so honest to Darwin (or anyone else) by Creationists crashing the Darwin Festival &#171; Shropshire Humanist Group &#8211; News and Articles</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/not-quite-so-honest-to-darwin-or-anyone-else/#comment-98</link>
		<dc:creator>Creationists crashing the Darwin Festival &#171; Shropshire Humanist Group &#8211; News and Articles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=48#comment-98</guid>
		<description>[...] in Darwin’s birthplace Not quite so honest to Darwin (or anyone else) More about Stephen Meyer’s lecture on Intelligent Design Other creationists who crashed the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in Darwin’s birthplace Not quite so honest to Darwin (or anyone else) More about Stephen Meyer’s lecture on Intelligent Design Other creationists who crashed the [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Not quite so honest to Darwin (or anyone else) by &#8220;Deep Waters Trust&#8221; out of its depth &#171; An Evening Person&#8217;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/not-quite-so-honest-to-darwin-or-anyone-else/#comment-97</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Deep Waters Trust&#8221; out of its depth &#171; An Evening Person&#8217;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=48#comment-97</guid>
		<description>[...] Not quite so honest to Darwin (or anyone else) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Not quite so honest to Darwin (or anyone else) [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Other creationists who crashed the Darwin party by &#8220;Deep Waters Trust&#8221; out of its depth &#171; An Evening Person&#8217;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/other-creationists-who-crashed-the-darwin-party/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Deep Waters Trust&#8221; out of its depth &#171; An Evening Person&#8217;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-91</guid>
		<description>[...] Other creationists who crashed the Darwin party [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Other creationists who crashed the Darwin party [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on More about Stephen Meyer&#8217;s lecture on Intelligent Design by &#8220;Deep Waters Trust&#8221; out of its depth &#171; An Evening Person&#8217;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/2009/05/16/more-about-stephen-meyers-lecture-on-intelligent-design/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Deep Waters Trust&#8221; out of its depth &#171; An Evening Person&#8217;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eveningperson.wordpress.com/?p=64#comment-90</guid>
		<description>[...] More about Stephen Meyer’s lecture on Intelligent Design [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] More about Stephen Meyer’s lecture on Intelligent Design [...]</p>
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